Podcast: Diversity And Inclusion: What Are We Doing Wrong?

HR.com Live! podcast with guest Nicole McCabe on we have been getting diversity & inclusion wrong

Does your organization promote inclusivity and diversity? How?

In our recent podcast, Dr. Patti Fletcher asked our guest expert Nicole McCabe to discuss this topic and explain how we can get this right.

Nicole McCabe is the Vice President, Strategic Initiatives, Global Business Development & Ecosystems at SAP. She has over 20 years of technology industry experience in a variety of leadership roles that include marketing, account management, human resources, and partner ecosystems. She is an “ace” when it comes to the supply chain as well. This diverse experience has enabled Nicole to drive innovation through transformational programs that include Edge Certification, which is the only gender equality certification that is becoming the fastest and largest certified company and the first technology company to achieve this status.

Read the highlights as Dr. Patti Fletcher and Nicole McCabe discuss how we have been getting Diversity and Inclusion (D&I) wrong:

What exactly is going on? What's the struggle with inclusion? 

I am a big believer that everyone has been struggling with diversity and inclusion. We hear about diversity and inclusion all the time; it’s everywhere. It's in the news; it's in the companies that we go to; it’s everywhere, whether we know it or not. But at the core, I think a lot of companies are struggling to actually succeed with the inclusion component of this equation, and I believe that a lot of that has to do with the way in which we've built our strategies. Failure to truly achieve inclusion is built purely on our inability from a strategic approach to D&I, to bake in everyone. 

So we talked about programs. We angle everything towards the under-represented groups, which is so critical because those are the numbers and the individuals that need to feel included. Those are the numbers that we need to get up as well because we know if they don't feel included, they're going to walk out the door anyway. When we're not messaging towards the majority, and when we're not embracing those sort of privileged groups as you and I talked about, numbers will go up, but guess what else goes up? Resentment. Resentment for those groups that have not been baked into your strategy and most importantly the execution component to it. So you're executing a strategy purely for numbers, and that does not always equate to the inclusion being successful. 

You just hit the nail on the head. People talk about diversity, and sometimes they say diversity and inclusion, but they're using those words interchangeably. When we focus too much on the number in a representation, that's just counting heads. That has nothing to do with culture. We need to start thinking about diversity and inclusion not in addition to, but how we work with our workforce. So, can you talk a little bit about some of the key measurement changes we should be looking at ?

I think absolutely one of the biggest key measurements is around employee engagement. At the core of it, when you look at just the term inclusion, it means to be able to bring your true self somewhere. That's exactly what an employee engagement score will measure. What I found shocking was that in 2018 in a Gallup poll of employee engagement, what they found especially in the US and Canada is that employee engagement numbers across the board just hovered in the low thirties. This is shocking. Diversity and inclusion has been around for a long time, but certainly I would argue over the past seven years, it's seen a huge uptake especially in technology firms. They're investing millions of dollars and to still have it stay stagnant in the low 30s is quite incredible. 

Now, they are seeing it start to edge upwards. I had to look at the other countries around the globe, but it was hovering around 34%. Yes, it's moving up, but think about what that says. That says that 66% of employees are either completely miserable in their roles or they're completely disengaged and why should we care about that? Not only does it help retain employees, but it’s a huge financial cost to companies.

So when we talk about measurements, look at Employee Engagement. I would take it one step further beyond employee engagement. What I mean by that is look at the finances behind it. At SAP, when I was in my role as the Global Head of Gender Equality, one of the things that we did was we partnered up with an external consulting company, and they actually came in and looked at SAP's cost when it came to an employee engagement score. 

The results were quite shocking because what they found was that for every 1% that we were able to increase Employee Engagement as an organization that was approximately 45 million euros directly to the bottom line. We hear all the time that we should talk about the business case. Make the business case unique to your organization, and a lot of people won't argue that. But let me tell you when you're walking into a room and saying, “Hey we were able to increase Employee Engagement score by 2% which is 90 million euros to the bottom line,” people start to listen.

Having been in the HR world for well over two decades and in diversity and inclusion for about fifteen years, it's really difficult to even get a correlation. You’ve seen all the companies with more women on their boards or C-Suite or companies that have at least 30% representation in those decision-making and influencer positions that represent who they're actually trying to serve that market that they tend to perform better.

Which brings me to my next point, how exactly do we drive inclusion? We can hire people that look totally different from the people we see in the mirror but to your point, that's not enough, that's not going to change the ROI.

No, it's not going to change the ROI. We've heard about unconscious bias, and I’m a believer in unconscious bias as a component to a strategy. Some people will say, “I don't know if training works.” Look, if it's a component to your strategy, I think it's absolutely critical because we all have bias and that's okay. I mean, I have my own bias. 

But the fact that I'm aware of those enables me to catch myself, right? So I do believe understanding the bias that is within yourself and within your organization is critical. I would also encourage folks that when you're looking to drive the inclusion component, that's really, in my mind, the inclusion as a measurement of how well that strategy was orchestrated and designed and executed. Because if you have a diversity strategy and you're not seeing those employee engagements, which is the measurement of inclusion, go up, it's not done correctly. I would really urge companies to look at their own strategies with an unbiased lens. Get as many eyes on it as you can.

I've seen program after program built and rolled out completely ignoring messaging for all. So it comes off as this group is better than the others. We need this group more than we need you, right? So I encourage people to go and look at their strategies, look at their programs with an unbiased lens. I also encourage them to look at their existing programs. I think by nature, we think that we need to create a new program. 

I would argue that perhaps programs already exist and we can make those programs more inclusive. We can put criteria around the programs, we can look at how we're selecting into programs, especially top talent programs, right? That was a big thing that we found in SAP. When we looked at the top talent program, even though that was supposed to be our future leaders and we were striving to get more women into leadership positions, the top talent program only comprised of I think 10% women. So you need to look at how we are selecting people for those programs. What does that criteria look like? 

If you're able to take existing ones and just shift it or put that lens on it, that says, “Wait a minute, this may have been built with a biased viewpoint when it was created.” I think that that goes a long way and I would just say embed that thinking, embed the unbiased lens into everything companies do; look at the processes. Ask yourself, “Is this true for everyone or is it designed for one or few?” Look at the programs and overall look at the culture that you're building as well.

As HR leaders, your job is to enable a different “HOW.” That brings me to the next point about people being able to feel part of it. You talked a bit about how we tend to create programs for women, programs for LGBTQ, and we understand why and they're all well-meaning but they haven't moved the freaking needle. A lot of times, right at the same time, we get people saying “Why are you doing this? And by the way, why aren't I included? What about me?”

So let's talk about the exclusions. Let's talk about a guy who's not necessarily part of these newer programs, even though you just said they'd better be. Can you talk about the exclusions?

Sure. You and I have talked so many times about privilege. I'm a big advocate for really including those that are in what we would say categorically are privileged categories. I don't like the term, because it immediately lends itself into giving people permission to push back on those groups. To ultimately create resentment groups and those are the groups that you absolutely need to drive your strategy forward. So privilege definitely exists, I mean, we have all this research out there too but I think that we do need to remember that this system that we live in that has allowed these privileged groups was not created overnight. Quite frankly, it wasn't created by these individuals. It was created by people before them.

I can't tell you how many blogs I’ve read on privilege and the way they come across to me is saying, “Let's penalize these people for something that they didn't create.” If we put our arms around them and actually embrace these groups, let’s make them a part of a transformation towards creating a future that works for everyone, which is ultimately what inclusion is. So if you leave them out, it's never going to work because someone's always going to be resented which is exactly where we are today. 

What I really like about what you're saying is we can continue pointing fingers, but that doesn't solve anything. What we have to do is disrupt the system which is one of my favorites, because the system is not efficient. It's not effective and it's inequitable. We do have to start creating something that's more focused on the system versus just focused on the people and focused on a collective outcome. Do you have a call to action for everyone? Maybe a starting point? 

First and foremost, if you do one thing, look at your strategy that exists today when it comes to diversity and inclusion; look at what that looks like. You know, was it created with a biased lens? Do you have a strategy that is being executed in an inclusive way? That could be the messaging. Are you going out there and saying here's a program for women or here's a program for Millennials or you know, whatever it might be.

So first and foremost, absolutely look at your strategy and the second call to action, I would say, is to know your organization. Be very real with yourself as far as where you are at in the maturity level of a diversity inclusion organization. Some companies are just starting out, and others have been doing it for a decade or more. So what comes out in research, what might seem like it's making a huge impact at another organization, might not work for your organization. 

I think it's so critical for companies to really take a good look at who they are, where they're at in their journey, and again go back to the strategy. Take a look if you have the right strategy that was created in an unbiased way that supports your culture.

To learn more about how we’ve been doing diversity and inclusion wrong all this time, listen to the full 15-minute podcast here:   

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	Dr. Patti Fletcher, Chief Equity Advocate & HR Disrupter, HR.com
	Nicole McCabe, Vice President, Strategic Initiatives, Global Business Development & Ecosystems, SAP.